I Like Jesus “I like Jesus – but I don’t go to church.”

Bosco Peters has a very good piece on why people stop going to church, but still call themselves Christians, over on his Liturgy blog.  He relates it to the recent Census figures on church attendance, but gives much more (including at least four Post Scripts to his original post).

Here's the opening paragraph....

OK. Anyone who has been paying attention would be concerned. I’ve seen Christian communities I care about, approximately halve in numbers of people participating in the last fifteen years or so (a period in which the country’s population grew by 20%). The NZ Census figures on religious affiliation, released this week, present a similarly sobering reflection.

Read the rest here. 

Ah.....church....!

A list of does and don'ts from a site called The Owls and the Angels has probably already started doing the rounds of the Internet. However, I've only just caught up with it, and for the benefit of those others who haven't seen it either, I'm alerting you to it.

The first three items on the 20 point list are below, to whet your appetite.

1. Be genuine. Do not under any circumstances try to be trendy or hip, if you are not already intrinsically trendy or hip. If you are a 90-year-old woman who enjoys crocheting and listens to Beethoven, by God be proud of it.

2. Stop pretending you have a rock band.

3. Stop arguing about whether gay people are okay, fully human, or whatever else. Seriously. Stop it.

Faith from different angles

Just for a bit of a laugh check out Steve Martin's 'Atheists don't have no songs' video. (Incidentally, his movie, Leap of Faith, from 1992, still stands as a surprisingly good 'discussion' about faith, real and fake.)

On another tack, I received an email from Rowland Croucher yesterday in which he explains how an introvert (like him) uses Facebook. If you're not already a Facebook user, you won't be able to access his page - and you may not want to - but he provides some examples of ways in which he's started discussions recently, all of which have got people thinking about faith, and the spiritual dimension of life. It's another positive way of using what some people think of as useless Internet flotsam and jetsam. Here's the list:

* What does one say to a sad-looking lady, who obviously has some mental health issues, who stops you in a shopping mall and asks: 'Excuse me, can I ask you a question? Is there anything wrong with my face?' (She was 'wall-eyed', and she would not have won a 'beauty contest', but... ')??? Two key responses: 'Why not ask why's she's asking?' And: 'Were you looking at her to prompt the question?' (Answer: no: the pedestrian traffic was fairly heavy!).

* If you were to put a brief 'Statement of Faith' together, what would it look like? Here's one I wrote about 20-30 years ago. Should I update it? (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/topics/missions_evangelism?p=8057). Most people picked up on the women/men in leadership section!

* When/what was the last verifiable miracle you witnessed? Then a link to an article about 'Weird Christians' here - http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/25441.htm . One response: 'I prayed over a couple in our Church in 1998 who just been told by doctors that they could not have children because of the man having a non-existent sperm count. She fell pregnant within two months and they have three children now. He went for a sperm count check after the first child was born and it still registered zero.'

* Addiction: “Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the circus has left town.” “You do anything long enough to escape the habit of living until the escape becomes the habit.” “Why is it drug addicts and computer aficionados are both called users?” One response: 'I have a theory that someone who is addicted to self harm is doing it so they can feel. There is a real sense that they are emotionally numbed to the internal pain, there is a need for an external pain source to allow them to feel...'

* (WWJW - What Would Jesus Wear?) - A man has been kicked out of a church in the US - for dressing like Jesus. Neil Thompson dresses up like Jesus and goes to a new church every week. But when he got to St Paul's Church in St Louis, Missouri, police were called and he was asked to leave. Response: 'Obviously Jesus wasn't up on security plans when in the garden of Gethsemane. He was such easy prey to the mob and rejected the offer of a sword. We are so paranoid. Jesus deliver us from our preoccupation with our own safety rather than loving the outside even if he does prove to be our enemy and a threat to our lives. "He who tries to save his life will lose it".'

Mission in strange places

Just in case you ever thought that evangelism online was an impossible thing, or that the Internet was a waste of time in terms of bringing Jesus to people who've never heard of him, check this blog post out. It comes from a site called Reflections of a Broken Man, and I was alerted to it via another blog post - and the writer of that post came across it by checking out the blog roll on a friend's blog. Thus the Internet leads us down strange and intriguing pathways.

But the strange and intriguing thing about what happened to the writer of ROABM and the girl he introduced to Jesus, is that the 'conversation' took place in the middle of a World of Warcraft game.....

Digital transformation of mission

Tony Whittaker, the Coordinator of the online magazine, Internet Evangelism Day has written an Open Letter to Mission Agency Leaders.   He begins in this way:

Digital communication is transforming our world in ways that we are only beginning to discern. There are now over 3 billion mobile phone owners and 2 billion web users, and the majority are outside the West. Facebook has 500 million users in nearly 100 languages, making it (in terms of ‘population’) the third largest ‘country’ in the world.

This new ‘digital communication culture’ is superseding the West’s ‘print communication culture’. And remarkably, it has much more in common with the ‘oral communication cultures’ that many of us are so familiar with. Its strengths include two-way interaction and relationship building, visual storying rather than left-brain abstract analytic thinking, and the ability to offer information and help anonymously. 

Tony goes on to discuss ways in which Mission Organisations are still needing to catch up with the digital revolution.   There's something of a mindset that the digital age is only affecting the West.   This may (in part) be the case with the Internet, but in terms of mobile phones, the revolution is huge, enormous, increasingly global.  

Read the rest of his letter and see just how remarkable the potential is for far-reaching changes in global mission.  

The Internet generation isn't what you thought

Spiegel Online International has an interesting three page article by Manfred Dworschak about young people online which I'd suggest all those who are interested in how young people use the Net should read.  

It seems that while the current generation uses social media a good deal it doesn't regard being online as a top priority.   Meeting friends face-to-face is at least as important, if not more so - and much of what they do online is the same as they do off.   The Internet is no big deal to them: it's always been there, so they don't have any sense of excitement about it.

This is a bit of a surprise to many educators - and media pundits - who'd claimed that this generation would be the ones most savvy about the Net.   As it turns out, they're not particularly savvy at all (though of course there are exceptions).   Given a task to do on Google, many secondary students don't actually know how to use it well to find information.   They go for a scattershot approach and often miss the very things they're looking for.

A very small percentage will blog (the Internet is awash with abandoned blogs, many of which barely survive the first post), but it's not regarded as something they do.

They appear to be online a good deal, but in fact when they are online, they're often doing other things as well - like texting. 

Dworschak's article covers a lot of other ground, considers a number of studies that have been done on the subject, and questions the way we've thought about the Net and young people.    We may have to rethink the strategies!

One of the ugly sides of the Internet

One of the least mentioned issues in ministry is porn, particularly the easy availability of Internet porn.  I'm not talking about child porn here, but porn intended for men in general. 

And it doesn't just affect men in the congregations, it affects some ministers as well, though at present we have no New Zealand statistics on the extent of this problem.

A recent interview showed up on Newsbusters.   The article has the title CNN highlights porn's destructive effects on society?  (I'm not sure why there's a question mark at the end.)

The interview is with Gail Dines, the author of Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality.   The figures she presents are horrific: 420 million Internet porn pages, 4.2 million porn websites, and 68 million search engine requests for porn each and every day.   (While these are American stats, most of these sites are presumably available to New Zealanders as well.)  

Furthermore, according to one study, in 56% of divorce cases, one of the partners has an obsessive interest in porn.   Porn becomes the equivalent of a man having an affair, and worse, the women in question are able to 'satisfy' needs that his wife may not be willing or able to.

Plainly, getting up on a Sunday morning and preaching on this topic would be something of a shock to the average congregation.   But for some men in the congregation, it may be necessary....

Digital Rivers Newtown - a short story

The Internet Evangelism Day website has given permission for the following 'short story' to be republished.

It’s not often that a completely new town is built on unused open land. But that’s where Digital Rivers Newtown was constructed, in a previously undiscovered valley. People soon came flooding in to live, moving from surrounding settlements such as Printville and TVtown.

A new ethos of communication quickly developed, with its own dialect. The immigrants took a little time to learn it, but for their children born in Digital Rivers, it was as natural as breathing.

Alongside the new housing came shops. Quite soon, the Broogle store developed into the biggest and most popular on main street. Its biggest competitor, the BingHoo mall, had a smaller share of the market.

Broogle had little interest in selling food and drink, and allocated no space in their building to such a frivolous pursuit. So everyone was pleased when a student started selling coffee and fruit drinks from a coffee cart on the other side of the road. Mike Zuckerbook’s Coffee became wildly popular and he was soon able to rent a new cafe opposite Broogle’s. His unique selling point was the layout of the tables, enabling customers to talk to a wide range of friends over their drinks. Mike was continually extending the cafe floor area to cater for the growth.

Then came developments that shocked Broogle’s owners. Mike started to sell some of the same products that they did, as well as others they had never thought of. No longer did residents merely drop in to Zuckerbook’s for a quick coffee after shopping at Broogle’s. People could often be seen walking down the street towards Broogle’s, notice their friends popping into Zuckerbook’s – or smell the coffee – and quickly cross the road. After an hour or so, they might emerge from Zuckerbook’s and perhaps cross over into Broogle’s for five minutes, if at all.

Digital Rivers was changing fast. Its residents were finding their own new incarnation of the interactive grapevine that has existed within communities for millennia.

This story, of course, references Google and Facebook (Google’s founders were Brin and Page; Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook). The phenomenal rise and rise of Facebook seems set to continue. Perhaps half of all web users will have Facebook profiles within a year, certainly the figure is already near 100% for younger ‘digital’ people.

Increasingly, Facebook is becoming a ‘web within the Web’ – a one-stop resource creating less need to go into the wider web world so frequently. (This is a reflection, in some ways, of the proprietary content that AOL and Compuserve used to offer to their subscribers in the early days of the Web.)

Recent developments by Facebook are enabling more types of third-party content to be integrated into Facebook profiles and fan pages. Expect to see further dramatic developments in this area, making Facebook even more of a one-stop universal resource. The opportunities for FB fan, community pages and groups will continue to expand.

Despite its various quirks, Facebook is now a powerful yet easy opportunity for any web user to share faith online: read how.

The Gospel and the Internet

Many organizations are using the reach of the Internet to present the gospel to those around the world. One such ministry, Global Media Outreach, is currently looking for "online missionaries."

"We believe that God has given us the technology and the strategy," says Allan Beeber, the Orlando director of GMO, the media arm of Campus Crusade for Christ. "As more and more believers get involved, we think it's possible to see the Great Commission fulfilled, five to ten times over, in ten years." [ I'm not sure what he means by fulfilling it 'five to ten times over' - I'm merely quoting the original report.]

GMO is currently seeking workers. Last year, 66 million people reportedly visited one or more of GMO's 100-plus Web sites to search for information online about Jesus and the hope He brings. Of those, more than 10 million indicated a decision to follow Christ, and nearly two million initiated discipleship and requested more information about Jesus and Christianity through GMO's 4,000 online missionaries.

As more and more people gain access to the Internet and visit GMO sites requesting information and assistance, more mature believers are needed to respond. GMO says it now needs at least 10,000 online missionaries. These volunteers are asked to devote as little as 15 minutes a day to help respond to the e-mail inquiries that are being received — 80 to 90 percent of which are reportedly sent from outside of the United States.

Since its inception in 2004, GMO has seen the number of people indicating a decision for Christ grow from 21,066 annually to more than 10 million in 2009, twice its original projection for last year. No projection has been announced for 2010, but it could be over 30 million.

Anyone interested in more information or applying to be a volunteer online missionary should visit GMO's Web site at globalmediaoutreach.com. [sourced from ChristianPost.com via the Pastor's Weekly Briefing ezine]

It's worth checking the global media site out; they appear to be a group that's focused on using the power of the Internet with the intention of hooking people up with local congregations. They're an arm of the well-established Campus Crusade for Christ.

Television Out-Influences the Internet in Asia

The following is a summary from the Leadership Network of an article entitled: This Just In: The Boob-Tube, Not YouTube, Is Transforming the World

Television has become a revolutionary force for good in the majority of the world -- not just a couch potato-maker. Using a robust sample of data over many years and countries, Charles Kenny, a development economist with the World Bank, found a high correlation between areas that receive and consume TV and positive trends in literacy, school enrollment, health outcomes, birth control, lower levels of drug use and corruption, and even increased prosperity.

His conclusion is that we live and consume media in two worlds: The Internet-ascendant minority world (US & Europe) and the TV-ascendant majority World (the Developing World). "Television has had important development impacts," says Ethan Zuckerman, a global social entrepreneur with Harvard Law School's Berkman Center for Internet and Society. "So have radio, especially community radio, and mobile phones. Because we're going through an Internet revolution in the U.S., we tend to look for a parallel revolution in the developing world."

According to Internet World Stats, world Internet penetration rates are highest in North America at 74%, followed by Oceania/Australia at 60%, Europe at 52%, Latin America/Caribbean at 31%, Middle East at 29%, Asia at 19% and Africa at 7%. The world average is 26%.

In SuperFreakonomics, by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner, the authors point out how the attitudes of Indian women are changing because of greater access to TV. Note, of course, that the TV they're seeing isn't necessarily the kind of third rate filler that's appearing on most NZ television channels these days!

And round we go

One of the great joys of the Internet is the way in which you are not only enabled to hop from mind to mind, but are encouraged to by the sheer curiosity of finding out more about who this new person is that you've suddenly stumbled across.

Thus, heading from an entry by Bruce Hamill on Facebook, I find myself on Bruce's blog, which I don't remember coming across before. (It's called 'boo to a goose' in the best obscurely theological tradition.)

From there, an entry on his blog led me to Michael someone-or-other's blog, Beyond the Secular Canopy, where he had posted a new version of the Serenity Prayer:

Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, grant me:
the serenity to know that all will be reconciled in Jesus Christ,
the courage to participate in the change you are bringing,
and the wisdom to remember that ‘be realistic’ is not one of your commandments.

Another skip and a hop and we find ourselves at Inhabitatio Dei (these blog names - crikey!) where the prayer was re-posted, along with a further parody by Kim Fabricius, who wrote:

To lower the tone, do you know “The Senility Prayer”?

Ancient of Days,
grant me the senility to forget the people I’ve never liked,
the serendipity to run into the people I do,
and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Kim, of course, and to complete the circle, had turned up in a post on this blog just at the end of September.

Missional Librarians

Some interesting comments from a newish book called Virtual Worlds, Real Libraries, edited by Lori Bell & Rhonda Trueman. The book's subtitle is: Librarians and educators in Second Life and other multi-user virtual environments. (The latter expression is apparently now shortened to MUVE, something I learned before I'd read more than a few pages.)

What was interesting to me, in light of the many posts on here and discussions I've linked to, is that librarians are thinking missionally. In the Introduction, they ask: Why Should Librarians Be There? and go on to say:

From April 2006 to February 2008, the number of accounts in the virtual world known as SL [Second Life] increased from 180,000 to more than 12 million. Other virtual worlds - including Active Worlds and World of Warcraft, as well as Webkinz, Penguin Club [actually Club Penguin], and Whyville for children - are experiencing similar strong growth, and new virtual worlds seem to be appearing almost daily.

What is happening is that the web, which has evolved over the past 15 years from displaying just static text to graphical, dynamic web content and mashups [a Web application that combines data or functionality from two or more sources into a single integrated application], is becoming more and more interactive. Increasingly, sites seek to engage users and involve them in the processes of using and creating information. Static web pages, no matter how attractive, are no longer enough to impress users of the next generation - or perhaps any generation now using the Internet...

Libraries need to look at places on the web, including virtual worlds, where potential library users are active and assess how library services might be integrated into these environments. Many individuals now involved in virtual worlds may not be traditional library users. By putting ourselves where these users are, librarians have a remarkable opportunity to increase use of the brick-and-mortar library, promote library services and materials, and support education initiatives in SL and other virtual worlds.

It's this last paragraph that most intrigues me. If we were to change just a few words, we'd get:

Christians need to look at places on the web, including virtual worlds, where seekers are active and assess how church services might be integrated into these environments. Many individuals now involved in virtual worlds may not be traditional church attenders. By putting ourselves where these people are, Christians have a remarkable opportunity to increase use of the brick-and-mortar church, promote church services and materials, and support Christian initiatives in SL and other virtual worlds.

If librarians can get missional, why can't we?

Photo of a not-so typical library by Kate Andrews

Virtuality again

The discussion continues....

Is virtual (on the Internet) church really church? The issue is troubling a number of people, including Bob Hyatt, who's written in the first blog post of two or more that: The problem, in my mind, with virtual community and internet campuses isn’t that it’s not church... it’s that it is just church enough to be dangerous. Because it has all the easiest and most instantly gratifying parts of community without the harder parts, it ends up misshaping us.

On one hand, there's certainly truth in the fact that face to face stuff with other Christians is an essential part of being in the Body of Christ, but on the other, the fact that people are tuning into some form of church when they might not otherwise attend seems to me a plus rather than a minus.

It all depends on what we think church is. The gathering together of a group of Christians on a Sunday is only part of what Church is, and for many, while it gives them a chance to worship corporately, to hear preaching, to pass the time of day with a few fellow Christians, and maybe get to know a stranger or two, it's a fairly small window in the week. It's what's done outside of that Sunday morning experience that constitutes the rest of church - often the non-Sunday part is the bulk of church for some Christians.

Getting some people to tune into the radio, or TV, or the Internet are all ways of making sure people hear the Word preached. They may also sing along (as the Praise Be series obviously expected people to do) if there's the opportunity. For some people this may be all the church they'll know, and while it may seem fairly low-key to outside viewers, it's vastly superior to no experience of church at all.

If we are to participate in church in the whole sense then obviously we have to do more than attend Sunday services. But I'm not sure that those who just attend Sunday services are really any different to those who attend via the Internet or some older form of media.

Apropos of this, I just came across a blog post by Mark Pierson (who, along with Mike Riddell, is/was one of the pioneers in alternative worship in NZ):

What is there for someone in my situation when I go to church? 30 minutes of sung worship that will pop me out of how I feel and into something “better”? A sermon giving me another 3 things to add to the hundreds I have collected over the last few years in order to better be a follower of Jesus? A stream of people asking me how I am but not waiting long enough for me to tell them? Why do “worship leaders” nearly always expect that a good outcome in worship is to have everyone happy, “up” and talking to those around them? Eric Wilson in his wonderful book, “Against Happiness” suggests that “the predominant form of American happiness breeds blandness.” That may explain why so much worship is so bland.

Have IPhone, can Worship

Going to the movies, or a concert - or to church? Turn off your cellphone.

However, a growing number of iPhone owners are now using the device to "go" to church. Several churches have begun streaming services over the iPhone, and one of the first to do so is Northland, A Church Distributed, (yup, that's what they're called), which launched an iPhone Web app early in July this year. They offer not only videos of past church services, but also live streaming: the means to be "at" the service even though you're not physically there.

Northland has been innovative in this regard since 2001; hence the “distributed sites.” After opening four separate sites in Orlando, it began webcasting its services in 2006 , and in 2008 began an inteactive version of its webstream with access to an online pastor and the ability to chat with other worshipers.

I had a look at their website: at first it looks a bit underdone, but in fact, as you check it out, it proves to be more than adequate for the task.

While we hum and hah about whether virtual church is real church, there are people out there getting on and doing it. You can find out how they go about doing things technological on one of their blogs.

What does it all mean?

If you think we post too much about the Internet, Facebook, Twittering and the like on here, then check out this video. It asks at the end, What Does it All Mean?, but unhelpfully doesn't give an answer - of any sort.

It's primarily a batch of stats about the pace of life, the advancement of technology, the way in which the world has changed. The information is varied, and covers things like how many babies were born while the nearly five minutes of video plays through; about the fact that people growing up now are being prepared for jobs that don't even exist yet; that so much technological change happens every year that technology students can never keep up; that the amount of information engendered every day is more than happened over the last 5,000 years...and so on. You get the drift.

Not knowing what it means, or even knowing, it's still an interesting video (!)

What is CODEC?

I make no apologies for copying the following bits of information from the Durham University site. Mark Brown mentioned CODEC in a recent blog post, so I thought it was worth investigating a little further.

CODEC is a research initiative based at St John's College in Durham - a new institution in a hundred year old College exploring the interfaces between the Bible, the digital environment and contemporary culture. CODEC is set within the World Heritage Site of Durham's medieval Cathedral and Castle, an integral part of St John's College, Durham University. We have close links to the Department of Theology and Religion at the University.

CODEC aims to

• explore the interrelationship between Christianity and the media, spirituality and the internet
• understand the development in human relationships and self-perception within a digital media world
• research and develop teaching tools appropriate for a digital media world
• assess and resource the Christian community's appreciation of the digital environment
• increase the Church's ability to communicate effectively in the digital environment
  

On his blog, Mark says he sees two particular key challenges for the Church in relation to the Internet:

• Convincing church leaders that responding to the digital revolution is much more than simply setting up a website or a facebook page, but thinking through how it will affect the very practice of the church or agency

• There is a need for more academic writing/thinking around virtual ministry.. in particular solid theological thinking in relation to such topics as sacraments within the virtual setting, the non-physical nature of online identity, the nature of online community, and jurisdiction (to name a few)

Two very good points...but will the (institutional) Church respond?

It's Church, Jim, but not as we know it.

Some stats from Mark Brown's paper, The Bible in the Digital Space:

In just a short period of time the net has grown to around 35 billion pages with some 1.6 billion people using it.
There are around 55 trillion links between all the web pages in the world.
Every day there are some 100 billion mouse clicks made.
Every second, 2 million emails are sent.
Every two seconds in terms of data size, the equivalent of the Library of Congress, the largest library in the world, is moving across the web.
The internet is massive and growing at an extraordinary rate. It’s predicted that this year more information will be created on the Web than in all previous years combined.

And this phenomenal growth it isn’t simply limited to western nations, with Africa as an example, experiencing more than 1,000% growth in net users in the past 8 years. There is also a big push happening at the moment to make available internet access for all people, including those in the two-thirds world, with such projects as the Google backed O3B network (The Other 3 Billion).

Mark asks: What if we were to move into this digital space and offer an experience of church, of the Bible in the language and the culture of the digital environment?

Like it or lump it, this is a huge harvest field....to paraphrase: It's Church, Jim, but not as we know it.

Maybe it IS true...

Peter Scheele presents an idea of the possibility of God in this rather quirky video about the round/square/triangle. The sound quality is a bit weak at the beginning, but once he stands up and starts talking (almost literally) in your face, things improve. Worth watching for the way in which a simple idea can open up the imagination to something much bigger than we can grasp.



And here's a comment from Ron Hutchcraft in relation to the idea that the "Millennial Generation" has fallen through the cracks. "They're an unreached generation; they might be the most-unreached generation in history, but because of the internet, they're the most reachable generation in history."

The other 3 billion

I've only just caught up on this story, so excuse it being a little 'old.'

The 'other 3 billion' is a phrase used to describe the 3 billion people on the planet who don't have ready access to the Internet. O3b Networks is based in the Channel Islands and has a project well under way to provide 16 satellites that will drop the cost for ISPs and operators to provide Internet access over 3G (third-generation) and WiMax networks to people in countries like Africa, Latin America, the Middle East and Asia.

Partnered with HSBC (a worldwide banking corporation), Google, and Liberty Global, a private equity provider that provides phone and Internet access in 15 countries, this project will use medium range satellites, which can recieve and send signals at around 120 milliseconds, which is close to that of a fibre network. While fibre networks were already available in developed countries, the laying of them is not economically feasible elsewhere.

Why is this of interest to the Church? Because the Internet is one of the most extraordinary gifts humankind have received in the last century. It enables evangelism, outreach and ministry on a scale undreamt of, and achieves these in a myriad of ways. Certainly, like any other system, it has a dark side, but this isn't a reason to ignore it.

Goodbye Radio, Hullo Internet

It was once thought that radio was the most economical of the large-scale broadcasting opportunities for evangelism. Now it looks like the Internet is taking over in this area too.

Many churches around the world are filing podcasts on their websites, and thus making the churches' sermons and other material available to those who might have listened to the radio in the past. And it's being done at almost no cost, which means that even small ministries can play a part in reaching listening audiences.

Only a couple of years ago, podcasts were virtually unknown to those outside the elite areas of the Internet world; now they're being downloaded enthusiastically by all sorts of Internet users. And since they can be transferred onto MP3 players, they're as accessible as radio was. (Remember when people used to carry 'trannies' on their shoulders in order to listen to music? Trannies were monoliths compared to the technology now available.)

Only a few months ago a question was asked in our church: what did people think was the most used part of the church website? It came as a surprise to most of us that the downloading of sermons was the top feature - and not by church members, but by people in various parts of the world.

Incidentally, Radio NZ has a screed of podcasts available. Check them out. And here's the link to the DCBC podcast page.

The symbol at the top of the page is that used by Apple to represent podcasting.